Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:

• Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.


• We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.


• Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.

I will change the OP to match the changes.

You need two painters to be effective, so you're down to a three slot tank. Three slot tanks work currently (4 TPs + 3 slot tank) but you had to be careful. However, with the loss of the shield boost bonus, a cap booster will probably be essential, so you're down to a two slot tank.

/fubar

edit: to be fair, you'll never put a web on a Golem for Level 4s, so we're back to a 3-4 slot tank.

Second iteration on balancing just terrible. They are now worse than they are currently in game in return for the benefit of Bastion.

Initial attempt was much better and at least a reasonable basis for further work.

As you appear to be scratching around for what to with them just keep it simple and just remove the original anti-PvP nerfs to them (fix grid, sensor strength and scan res) and move on to something else for now.

well, when a vindicator has more damage, better webs, and an extra mid slot over a kronos... where's the incentive to use a marauder?

web bonuses on a static/slow ship?

no way, that's completely useless, even using the silly officer webs they are still crap. unless you also give them web range bonus... which creates a ton of other balance issues.

web bonuses are bad, they need to go, from all ships if possible.

as it is, the only thing that web bonus will be used against is NPCs, anything else, regardless of how slow it is, can stay away from tackle range.

provide real numbers and reasons how and why is your cerb so good and why would you win... and if you lose to caracal that has buddy warping in @ you then how much you lose. vs. going to pick up another caracal

if it's new to you also then real eve pvp is not alliance tournament.

and now replace that caracal and cerb with mega and kronos... see what happens.

where did i say that only lokis were used? in vanguards they are common....

and you realize general mjd scram imunity is way more op than +2 str?
it would mean that if you dont get killed before you align you ALWAYS get away!
how is that less op than simply +2 str

Well I was gunna waste a few months training the skills to fly a Golem decently, but now I think I will stick with my Over tanked Tengu and Noctis, does the job just as easily and I can afk tank in the Tengu. 1300 shields/3 seconds :D

To be honest, all I can see is detriment for the Vargur.

Removing the boost amount bonus, then implementing the resist bonus that will produce a similar amount of tank leaves you with the same old Vargur.

Having more damage application when it is forced to sit in the same spot for 60 seconds. If you could actually move, damage application isn't as much of an issue because you can move towards what you are shooting, or mitigate transversal with manual piloting.

The reduction in MJD cooldown is again, gimped by the notion that once MJD'ing, you're going to be stationary for 60 seconds, letting any competent tackle pilot lock you down with at least 40 seconds to spare.

I don't see any net gain out of either of these, except for the detriment of having to sit around like a muppet for 60 seconds yelling "Drop me!" (Not too good for PvE or PvP anywhere.)

Making the bastion module imperative to the use of the marauder truly pushes it further into a niche that is even more rare than a dread, which is pretty much condemned to shooting structures and capitals (on the very rare occasion) only, and makes an additional prerequisite for flying marauders. Are they going to become more skill intensive than a titan?

If I could throw away 1bil for a pvp hull, marauders would be the last place I would do that.

Sorry, I may not have made it clear. I was saying that the Marauder would have a niche so small people most likely won't even bother training for them. I was comparing it to the dread, which has the 2 purposes of structure and capital bashing.

I sort of assumed you were talking about PvE. Most people don't even take Navy Battleships into PvP

I would also like to see less utility highs on these ships i liked the CS approach .. cos while for pve it makes sense too have it the way it is for pvp it just leads to lots of neuts combined with strong web bonuses and T2 resists would surely make these OP..
I guess reducing fittings could be an answer too...
something like this:-

GOLEM

Role Bonus: 25% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

Marauders Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion radius per level
7.5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage

Slot layout: 8H(+1), 7M, 4L; 0 turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 8500 PWG (+2000), 715 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300)
default resits 25% in bastion mode
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325(+700) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 5.5 cap/s (-0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10
Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 450(-125)

The golem has problems tanking lvl 4's if you're using an x-l booster.
This is because of the terrible cap.
Even with a x-type, with a large cap booster, you still will cap out in like 1min 20 seconds or so...
My nightmare does way better on cap, and it's a freaking laser boat.
And i'm talking about with t2 tachs on it, x-l shield booster, tracking computer, 3 active resists, and a large cap booster.

Edit..
Oh, and it's got a massive sig.
NPCs pound the hell out of you, and when I used to fly it as a torp boat, it got bounded and a large shield booster came no where near keeping up.

Dual medium boosters works great on a Golem. Or pulse the XL. XL's aren't designed for permarunning. Even larges. But you can work a dual medium (one perma running, second for backup for the higher DPS Epic Arcs).

Bastion will completely screw over the dual medium booster tank setup, beacuse if its like siege mode, Crystal implants won't affect it.

And off the quote, I read that they are trying to get 37km range torpedoes? I get that already with CN torps and a rig if I wanted to. 37km isn't long enough to compensate for the 100km jump from a MJD. Need at least 50km, to halve the difference between you and your target. Stock CN range with skills, is 31km. Plenty long enough for a MWD geared ship. I'm thinking scrap the whole Bastion, just make minor tweaks, and make Marauders like Heavy Assault Ships, up close and personal in your face DPS with better tank than T1 counterparts. Seems thats what the community can all agree on.

My Original Marauder Suggestions Post: http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3556070#post3556070

Because it's true.

If you wish to fit short range weapons in lvl 4's, then you're not able to engage targets until they can engage you.
When you do this, you take a lot of damage, more so than a sniper fit.

However, the advantage of using close range weapons is that you can clear targets faster, thus clearing the mission faster.
In order for this to be effective you need to draw a lot of agro, so that you're not sitting around waiting for targets to come into range.

Since marauders have large sigs, they take a even more damage than other ships.
So, with close range weapons you're taking more damage, from more targets...

I've flown missions that a torp Golem couldn't tank, but I was able to kite them in a drake...

Smash the supplier is one that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've successfully completed that mission in everything but a Marauder.

These ships will work nicely as counter snipers.
t3 bc's and bs's fitted for sniping have always been a pain for people to deal with..
With marauders you can either MJD right on top of them, or you can just bastion and tank them while sniping right back at them...
Currently, there's not really anything to counter t3 bs and bc snipers... iteration 1 will change this, and Marauders will still be countered by brawlers due to tracking issues.


Edit... granted... marauders are expensive, so them being used in pvp at all is pretty slim....

With that in mind, why do we really care so much about pvp funtionality if we're all well aware that they're too pricey to bring to a fight?
Some people will use them at times, but even if they had a hard pvp centric design, they still wouldn't get used much...
Just look at blops...

although the NAPOC is better with pulse lasers by virtue of its tracking bonus and can actually make conflag hit the broad side of a barn.